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Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby GuestMember on Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:09 pm

I had a look on Formula Sailcraft and I was surprised to find this:

"Our Formula Sailcraft Sabre shape is currently undergoing a revamp with our new 'Mk2' Plug under construction. Our new 'FS Sabre Mk2' hull will be slightly flatter under the web bulkhead and centrecase bulkhead areas, will have less bottom round, and will have straighter chines in elevation through the mid to aft sections. These changes will make our new Sabres even faster particularly downwind in marginal surfing conditions."

I was told that the changes in rules would not lead to people manipulating the boat and it is happening even before the rules have change, are we sure we want to open this can of worms, as there is no turning back one it has started.

This makes the investment of the 14K into Formula Sabre drop value very quick for those poor people who have purchased them!!! I for one would be Very unhappy and disappointed with the class.

I hope the discussions in SA by the measures take note of this development and consider what the outcome will be if we go down this path of development, this could put back the amazing growth of the class overnight.
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Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby HelterSkelter on Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:07 am

I noticed the Formula Sailcraft article and consider a hull from this mould should not be given an A Class certificate. Frankly there are many hulls out there which are 'designer hulls' purposely using the building tolerances to hopefully gain the advantage. Allowable tolerances are there to cater for the inexperience of the amateur builder or a genuine problem during construction. Correct me if I am wrong and if I am then the Rules need to be changed to support this otherwise the class will cease, if it hasn't already, to be a one design class.

Other one design classes have a master mould for the FRP hulls, from which all certified moulds are cloned. Not hard or expensive to do.

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Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Jack on Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:32 am

HelterSkelter wrote:I noticed the Formula Sailcraft article and consider a hull from this mould should not be given an A Class certificate. Frankly there are many hulls out there which are 'designer hulls' purposely using the building tolerances to hopefully gain the advantage. Allowable tolerances are there to cater for the inexperience of the amateur builder or a genuine problem during construction. Correct me if I am wrong and if I am then the Rules need to be changed to support this otherwise the class will cease, if it hasn't already, to be a one design class.

Other one design classes have a master mould for the FRP hulls, from which all certified moulds are cloned. Not hard or expensive to do.

HelterSkelter 1906


I could not agree more with you.

I am not sure why FSC feels the need to change the boat, we have four at the club and they certainly win their fair share of the races.
These boat cost over $15000, so I would be very upset if my boat was out of date after less than a year of spending that kind of money, how would you feel?

I think it is time to put a halt to all this nonsense, put the rule back the way it was and approve the builders and the current molds.

This would allow the class to keep progressing and give the association time to look at if this rule really does need changing.
I know of people putting off purchasing a new Sabre until this issue is resolved and who can blame them with $15000 for a new boat, not an investment you spend in a hurray.
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Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby liverbird on Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:54 pm

Having recently purchased a new YMS Sabre amidst the changes currently going on and still being discussed, I was most concerned to hear about the new plug that Formula Sailcraft was advertising.
I feel very strongly against any manipulation of the design that goes away from a conventional wooden built Sabre. The YMS mould was built from a wooden boat.
Today we can get computer designed models that can be already fully tested using particle beam possessing systems so that it will improve aqua-dynamic properties. If we now put this scenario into building a new Sabre where foam cells are bent and stretched to their max to redefine shape, is this really good for the class? Is this even in the best interests of our family of Sabre owners?
If such an FRP boat was built using this method, can it be made identically in wood as all Sabres where once intended to be? I have no objections to FRP Sabres being built from wooden plugs but if some new shape appeared that could not be replicated in wood then we should all be concerned.
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Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Snodge on Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:23 am

Just a few questions, does anyone know which ply hull the new XSP Sabre plug was built from?
The original FSC plug was built from a ply hull yes?
Was there no attempts by builders (amateur or professional) of ply hulls to improve their shapes in years gone by?
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Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Wand on Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:10 pm

Yup, the fact is the tolerances were written in to allow for the inevitable construction errors. Glass craft have no such need for tolerances and a plug should be dead set in the middle of all tolerances to be A class, and any weight unders should be carried on the sternpost. If this drives those who want to use the tolerances allowed in wood back to wood construction, then all the better that would be for the class, not to mention cheaper. If the executive was to implement rules along the lines of these simple suggestions i think it would get the class back to being one design as was originally intended. But will it happen? No way :-((
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Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Aten on Fri May 09, 2014 12:29 pm

An email just went out to alot of committee members and intrested parties regarding this. I will keep you posted on what sort of reply I get.
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Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Andrew Graham on Sat May 10, 2014 6:43 pm

The FS website makes it sound like they've created a design break-through boat - and by implication that our rules are open to innovation to permit this. Isn't marketing wonderful ! Just like McDonalds can make a Big Mac sound like some gourmet healthy treat. If I had a new mould I'd be talking it up too - good on him.

I know the national committee wishes Jim success with his new mould - it's always great to see builders showing their optimism for the future of the class by doing this. But be assured - the mould measures in terms of the old rules and the rule changes made last year; and would also measure under new strengthened rules that will hopefully flow this year from the inaugural national measurer's meeting last month (if approved by state associations). It's not a controversial shape. It's not Ben Lexcen's Australia II's winged keel. It's not being 'rushed through'. But Jim has every right to build a new mould that differs from his existing one. As did YMS when it created its current mould mid last decade. As did Botterill in the last 90's. It's OK to build a new mould - but what wouldn't be OK would be if any builder starts 'playing games'. Fortunately none of the existing (or FS) moulds have done this - and new rules will ensure that that's the way it stays. New moulds will have to produce Sabres that look like Sabres and indeed emulate the shape of plywood boats.
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Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Slow Hand on Sat May 10, 2014 8:17 pm

May I comment from a timber boat perspective ..... a timber boat, as part of or after construction can be modified with the use of bog, fibreglass etc to maximise or minimise measurements within the tolerances. A beginning amateur may not have this skill, but an experienced craftsman can do so. Hence, I don't accept the logic that a fibreglass boat should be built to the middle of tolerances since whatever can be done within the tolerances with FRP can also be achieved with timber boats.

I would contend that a more relevant discussion is - what range of tolerance is appropriate for each measurement in order to preserve the desired flexibility for amateur builders and maintain a close to "one-design" concept.

If the concensus is that fibreglass boats HAVE to be at the middle of tolerances - then we are in the production space of Lasers and Spirals - an economic decision with a single supplier to achieve best price for volume!
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Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Peter1 on Sun May 11, 2014 12:09 am

Pleased to read Andrew's comments as I've recently ordered a FS sabre.
Many thanks Andrew for the clarification.
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Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Aten on Sun May 11, 2014 9:27 pm

Hi all,

I have been in the middle of big discussion and have had conversations, by phone and email, from many involved. What I have learned is that the new formula sail craft boat measures in. Well so I have been informed. The boat is within tolerances and emulates a ply boat. The term emulates has been a bone of contention. The emulate part has been determined by placing a strip of ply (4.5mm I believe) on the boat (or perhaps mould but am not sure on this) and ensuring the ply will take the shape of the boat. Although this method could be open to some personal interpretation i believe it is a reasonable way of determining "emulates" if done in a fair way.
Manipulation of boats is done regularly in ply but is limited by the nature of material and type of construction. As far as I know the FS boat is the first to be built entirely from a "plug" as opposed to an existing boat. In my opinion I would consider it prudent that hull moulds should be built from existing ply boats and only allow for fairing to make the mould "true and fair". This would ensure it a "real sabre".
If the formula sail craft boat turns out to be a superior shape, even if only slightly, it has the potential to affect the class negatively. Firstly it would render existing investments in current boats virtually worthless. Yms boats would be considered "entry level". It also have the potential piss to off a lot of existing boat owners leading to mass exodus from the class.
Allowing a hull mould to be built from a plug sets a dangerous precedent and I would guess that no professionally built mould would ever be built from a boat again. Based on what I have learned I doubt that the FS boat would be significantly faster than anything currently available. But saying that I believe something should be written into the construction rules only allowing future moulds to be taken from existing "real sabres".
I will admit my financial interest here. I have just taken a step to allow amateur builders to build frp boats by purchasing a complete sabre mould. This mould is going to be available for hire at a reasonable rate to amateur and professional builders (solely at my personal discretion). This mould is the current YMS design and is built by Brett from YMS. It will only be available to WA builders as I expect demand will not allow it to leave WA.
Last edited by Aten on Sun May 11, 2014 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Aten on Sun May 11, 2014 9:33 pm

Let's make a call to only allow future moulds to be only made from existing ply boats. This will ensure only "real sabres" will be made. Nip it in the bud now before it's too late.
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Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby harold on Mon May 12, 2014 11:56 am

A lot has been written about the new Formula Sailcraft hull which is being promoted on their web site. Most of is not based on sound information and has caused considerable unnecessary concern amongst those who care about our great Sabre class.

At the request of Formula Sailcraft the National Measurer, Nick Mouat and myself as Vic State Measure, measured the plug for the new Formula Sailcraft hull. Of particular interest to us was determining whether there had been any manipulation to the hull which could be deemed to be outside of the rules.

We found that the new Formula Sailcraft plug fully complies with all the measurements and fully complies with the 'spirit of the Sabre' as expressed in clause 3.2 of the FRP Construction Notes. 3.2 says "the FRP Sabre must emulate, as nearly as possible,the construction, shape and performance characteristics of a fully complying plywood boat."

There are absolutely no grounds on which boats made from this new plug could or should be refused a measurement certificate under the old rules or under the revised rules.

If anyone still has concerns I suugest they read Andrew Graham's comments. Andrew is National Vice President and a passionate supporter and protector of the Sabre Class. He owns a YMS.

Harold Medd
Vic State Measurer
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Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Aten on Mon May 12, 2014 12:50 pm

Harold,

I understand that the boat measures. I am concerned what will happen to the class if this boat is faster and that a dangerous precedent is now set allowing "plug boats". This has potential to damage the class as a whole. I say put a stop to any new moulds being made from fabricated plugs and only allow moulds to be made from real ply sabres.
The plug boat idea may work but has the potential to breed a lot of dissent. I do not think it is a risk this class should take.

Craig
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Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby GuestMember on Sat May 17, 2014 9:33 pm

harold wrote:A lot has been written about the new Formula Sailcraft hull which is being promoted on their web site. Most of is not based on sound information and has caused considerable unnecessary concern amongst those who care about our great Sabre class.

At the request of Formula Sailcraft the National Measurer, Nick Mouat and myself as Vic State Measure, measured the plug for the new Formula Sailcraft hull. Of particular interest to us was determining whether there had been any manipulation to the hull which could be deemed to be outside of the rules.

We found that the new Formula Sailcraft plug fully complies with all the measurements and fully complies with the 'spirit of the Sabre' as expressed in clause 3.2 of the FRP Construction Notes. 3.2 says "the FRP Sabre must emulate, as nearly as possible,the construction, shape and performance characteristics of a fully complying plywood boat."

There are absolutely no grounds on which boats made from this new plug could or should be refused a measurement certificate under the old rules or under the revised rules.

If anyone still has concerns I suugest they read Andrew Graham's comments. Andrew is National Vice President and a passionate supporter and protector of the Sabre Class. He owns a YMS.

Harold Medd
Vic State Measurer


Hi Harold

Can you then please explain why he felt the need to go through the expence and effort of building a new mold, long before the old one was worn out.

I personal would not like to be one of the good Sabre members that purchased an FS boat to find out that my quite considerable investerment has lost value so quickly. This is the type of thing that people who have the class at heart need to take into account, changing shapes of fibreglass boats has serious concequenses on the future of the class, I believe it is this very point that seams to be understood by so many, but being completely missed by those that are advacating for the current drive towards faster fibreglass boat.

It is not only the existing fibreglass boats that will be de-vauled, but indeed that wooden boat will fall behind.

So to all I ask you to please take sometime to really consider the issues that are being discussed thoughout the Association and think about what good will come from allowing lots of different shaped fibreglass boats?
I am sure when you take in account what is BEST for the class you will conclude that we need to lock down the fibreglass shape and only that will protect the members who have invested in the class and build it towards a great future.
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