Welcome Guest: Login | It is currently Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:29 pm

Board index Development & Design Boat Construction Has Anyone Seen This?

Moderator: Sabre


Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby MOBCON69 on Sat May 17, 2014 11:58 pm

Hi everyone have a December 2013 FS boat. I have spoken at length with Jim about the mark 11 and whilst I am believer it may be a little faster than my boat in some conditions I will need to loose 8 to 10 kilos to probably see this. I sail in a fleet at Adelaide sailing club where we have 3 yms boats and 3 FS boats our take is the yms is probably a little quicker up hill and the FS a little quicker down hill. The issue is Mark Soulsby is a much better sailor than 4 of us and he constantly wins! He is faster uphill and downhill! He is just a better sailor than me! The issue is 2 of us in the FS boats are fat bastards 83kg plus and I think the FS mark 1 maybe better suited to us!

Seriously I watched the 125 class go through everything I read and in the end the glass boats are still there and unfortunately the wooden boats are just not as strong. This is progress in sailing, people want a ready to sail boat these days.

I buy John Clifton sails Cliffo handed me my sail and Mark Soulsby's at the same time, we have the same masts. He still beats me by more than the hull shape in my view!

I focus on improving my technique around the coarse, trying to keep up with Mark this is what counts not 10 to 15 mm here and there.

These are just my thoughts I like Jim Scott he is the best boat builder I have dealt with. I also like Tim Haselgrove he is building a new glass boat as well I have seen the plug. It will be of good quality it will look good it will be Tims best effort on shape and I hope it is fast for the class and Tim. He builds a beautiful light weight sharpie.

Competition, many glass boat builders hopefully cheaper and better boats will be the outcome.

ps the yms and FS boats at our club often finish all within 30 to 60 seconds of each other and by all accounts they are different hull shapes!

I do not believe there is the magical 5 minute advantage in the sabre class the builders are just competing for market share is my view. The sail and the mast plus this fat bastard is the issue for not achieving the magical 5 minutes.

For the wooden boat believes I built a wooden 125 at the age of 19 probably one of the last wooden boats built! So I do love wooden boats I have third share in a 1942 putt putt built by Searles boat yard in Port Adelaide. Me and two mates restored her from the grave she is beautiful and I am proud of her.

But in my life right now I just could not build a wooden sabre.

Just my thoughts as new member of the sabres.

Mark O'Brien
MOBCON69
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:55 pm

Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby GuestMember on Mon May 19, 2014 4:16 am

Mr. Graham....just saw your commentary and felt a few facts need to be corrected.

YMS only built a new mould and shape as the ssav funded a new Botterril built mould from your wooden boat at that time I believe? and wasn't this blatantly contravening the class rules of the time as back then all frp boats were built from the one shape. I heard when Youngi complained to the National committee they got back to him in less than a week with the decision that they would allow it......and while the "messenger" was still on the phone explaining the decision Youngi got his diamond wheel and cut his moulds up in disgust while on the phone still.
Im inquisitive about the fact that normally the voting process for recent rule changes seems to take for ever. if a major rule like that was changed in less than a week, is that actually constitutionally legal and was youngi hard done by?

You said the FS moulds measured as a strip of ply was laid over it ?>?? as I read things, a full panel of the right thickness ply would have to be laid over the section concerned .....not just a strip.....and how the hell can you tell if the plywood is actually touching the whole time if you cant see through the plywood??? you guys must be magicians or something. I cant see any way that you can check that the frp panel and the full ply panel are in contact at all??? sound s like propaganda to me.
why didn't Jim just build from a ply plug or boat like all the other moulds have been? that way way we all know it is all the same as a ply boat.......instead of taking the word of some magicians tht can see through plywood and say "hey, trust me . it truly touches everywhere.....and you only used a strip anyway..... iI'm guessing youre not a tradesman in any way Andrew..............
and Mark, I wish I had your blind faith. Do you truly believe your boat hasn't dropped in value by at least 3k after Jim put on the web that his new design was clearly going to be faster after manipulating the shape. I heard it was done with bog and wasn't a timber panel? that cant be right ? that means its ok for everyone to change their Sabre shape with bog......cool.....im off to change my Sabre like Jim has,,,,,
GuestMember
 
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 2:14 pm

Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby GuestMember on Mon May 19, 2014 4:16 am

Mr. Graham....just saw your commentary and felt a few facts need to be corrected.

YMS only built a new mould and shape as the ssav funded a new Botterril built mould from your wooden boat at that time I believe? and wasn't this blatantly contravening the class rules of the time as back then all frp boats were built from the one shape. I heard when Youngi complained to the National committee they got back to him in less than a week with the decision that they would allow it......and while the "messenger" was still on the phone explaining the decision Youngi got his diamond wheel and cut his moulds up in disgust while on the phone still.
Im inquisitive about the fact that normally the voting process for recent rule changes seems to take for ever. if a major rule like that was changed in less than a week, is that actually constitutionally legal and was youngi hard done by?

You said the FS moulds measured as a strip of ply was laid over it ?>?? as I read things, a full panel of the right thickness ply would have to be laid over the section concerned .....not just a strip.....and how the hell can you tell if the plywood is actually touching the whole time if you cant see through the plywood??? you guys must be magicians or something. I cant see any way that you can check that the frp panel and the full ply panel are in contact at all??? sound s like propaganda to me.
why didn't Jim just build from a ply plug or boat like all the other moulds have been? that way way we all know it is all the same as a ply boat.......instead of taking the word of some magicians tht can see through plywood and say "hey, trust me . it truly touches everywhere.....and you only used a strip anyway..... iI'm guessing youre not a tradesman in any way Andrew..............
and Mark, I wish I had your blind faith. Do you truly believe your boat hasn't dropped in value by at least 3k after Jim put on the web that his new design was clearly going to be faster after manipulating the shape. I heard it was done with bog and wasn't a timber panel? that cant be right ? that means its ok for everyone to change their Sabre shape with bog......cool.....im off to change my Sabre like Jim has,,,,,
GuestMember
 
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 2:14 pm

Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby GuestMember on Mon May 19, 2014 4:52 am

And HelterSkelter and Jack....I totally agree that its bizarre that more noise hasn't been made about this and I totally agree and hope other members do as well , that boats from this clearly "manipulated' fibreglass mould should never get an "A" certificate and I have also had sailing friends turn away from joining as no one wants to risk losing big bucks that easily. has anyone actually beaten a yms boat for a National title at all? Mark , even with your rose coloured glasses on.....I'm pretty sure no one has? and didn't that mould come from Batesy's plywood boat? so why hasn't anyone ben able to beat it. I know the 10 year old YMS Sharpies still keep winning Nationals. why doesn't everyone just get a hull mould taken of Batesy's Sabre as well (or from yms) and then....what do they call It????....oh yer.....that's right....that would make all the hulls the same.....and I think they call that "ONE DESIGN". isn't that what the Sabre is supposed to be? cant we get that sorted before more of my friends sail other boats instead? the Impulse class will keep growing but I think Jim builds them as well
hey....has anyone actually heard anything from the measurers thing back in April? Did I miss that posting?

it seems its a done deal that the ssaa is going to allow that new fs shape. if, as just lowly members, we think it doesn't measure or it breaks the Sabre rules we can put a protest in at any regatta or race or something cant we?..or at every regatta...every time it sails. lets face it....if it hasn't come off a plywood Sabre its never going to be seen as a true Sabre and surely that stigma is going to hang in air like the smell of yachties dead wetsuit................. how hard is it to fill out a protest form anyway? im goin to pre do a stack I reckon.
GuestMember
 
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 2:14 pm

Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Aten on Mon May 19, 2014 12:21 pm

This new precedent has to be stopped. The only way to do this is to only allow any more moulds to be taken from real sabres.
Mark O'Brien, You are 100% correct and that what makes the sabre so good. This new precedent has the abilty to change all that and destroy the class.

By the way. The "new rules" vote was not done in accordance with the SSAA rules. I have queried this and and as you probably would guess I have not had any reasonable response. So currently they can not enforce the rules and there is every possibility they will not pass when the vote is finally put to the state associations for their members to vote on. If you want any more info on this you can message me here or email me on craig@polypipetraders.com.au.
Craig
Aten
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:39 pm

Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby GuestMember on Mon May 19, 2014 12:33 pm

[quote="Slow Hand"]May I comment from a timber boat perspective ..... a timber boat, as part of or after construction can be modified with the use of bog, fibreglass etc to maximise or minimise measurements within the tolerances. A beginning amateur may not have this skill, but an experienced craftsman can do so. Hence, I don't accept the logic that a fibreglass boat should be built to the middle of tolerances since whatever can be done within the tolerances with FRP can also be achieved with timber boats.

Hi Slow Hand,

Which edition of the Sabre rules did you get the above line from? Is there a newer set than the August 2011 ones I have? My set doesn't say anything about allowing bogging and changing the shape of plywood Sabre. This set of rules says "shall be constructed of marine or waterproof type plywood". The word "shall" makes the statement mandatory.....and as the statement doesn't say "shall be constructed from plywood AND bog" the original rule mandates that ONLY plywood is allowed..........and Bog disallowed by its initial omission.

Hmmm.........is your Plywood boat reshaped with bog?
GuestMember
 
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 2:14 pm

Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Aten on Mon May 19, 2014 12:40 pm

Why so many posts from "guest member"? What are you hiding from? How many guest members are there?
Aten
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:39 pm

Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby GuestMember on Mon May 19, 2014 1:01 pm

[

Hi Aten,

Im glad somebody else thinks the way the new changes have tried to be introduced is invalid.

I totally believe this is true. I've retired into Sabres from other much higher stress and agro type Int classes like 420 and 505 etc. They both had rule changes ruled out as invalid.......and it makes sense why.....

Lets say you have 40 new rule submissions to be voted on and if you vote on them all as one block ( i.e. all of the new rules or none) then all the voting members know exactly what theyre getting.

in the case of voting on each change individually, if any one submission doesnt get voted in, then because all rules may effect other rules in a knock on effect, then the intent of the earlier submissions that were successfully voted in now have a potentially different outcome to what people thought they were voting on........so the whole complete vote must start again......e.g. you vote for transom scuppers to be allowed and it gets in but then later on the vote on being allowed to open them while racing doesn't get through (current rules don't allow drain plugs to be opened while sailing and these are just a larger drain.....and always leaked on my 420 and 505)......well....that would leave you thinking that there was no point to vote scuppers in then as you cant use them anyway so youd rather go back and re vote as the intent and usage is now totally different.

all those rule changes would need to be voted on as a block or cant be included I believe.

cheers
GuestMember
 
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 2:14 pm

Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby GuestMember on Mon May 19, 2014 1:09 pm

theyre not all me. I did just the rule changes are invalid one but I think there are about 62 members as "guestmember" so to other guestmembers just realise that your private messages aren't so private as other "guestmembers" can. After seeing the biased reporting of these rule changes and people being "cut down" by members who make the make the decisions for this class and who I have to drink with each weekend in the bar, I have sadly taken my tag off but I didn't really use the forum much.

Sounds like more members should?! looks like a bit of a mess at the moment but I'm sure sensible heads will prevail.
GuestMember
 
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 2:14 pm

Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Slow Hand on Mon May 19, 2014 8:05 pm

Dear GuestMember,
Who would know what is hidden behind cosmetics - unless you wake up next to it :-)
I was not quoting rules - and you miss my point :-(
That aside .... no, my boat has not been altered by the use of bog.
BUT - I have seen it done in other flat chine classes over the decades :-) and there is no reason it could not be done in the Sabre .... it would be a very naive person who thought it would not happen in the Sabre class.
1724 nui uma
Slow Hand
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 12:57 am
Location: ... somewhere ...

Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby GuestMember on Wed May 21, 2014 8:26 am

Well, well

After reading all these posts, it seams very clear to me that the Sabre Association needs to put a stop to proposed rule change that will allow all these new boats and fast. Before the class suffers any further and might I say, being an owner of a FS boat I for one will not be very happy at all if my vast investment in the Sabre class drops because of this class allow a newer design.

Therefor I ask that those who are currently pushing this change wheelbarrow, that it is time to look again at this issue and realize that they have it wrong and it needs to be corrected before it gets any further down the track.

I know people who are currently being prevented from joining or upgrading into the class, as they have no idea of which boat to buy and who will be next to build the faster boat. The class can not keep going like this any longer, so it is time gentlemen to put a stop to it and fast.
GuestMember
 
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 2:14 pm

Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Aten on Wed May 21, 2014 10:17 am

Thank you for agreeing. We need to go to our state associations and push for this change at the national level.
The national association, SSAA, has only 6 members - the states- so only the states have the power to change not individuals. Have a vote at state level to get a motion going at the national level.

Craig
Aten
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:39 pm

Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Aten on Wed May 21, 2014 10:23 am

I think I need to be clearer on the change. The current situation with the latest interpretation is allowing boats to be made from plugs. The previous "guestmember" is assuming a change to allow these new shapes but the reality is we need the change to stop these new shapes.
The rules have not changed, the interpretation has changed. We need a change in the rules to be clear and stop this interpretation.
Craig
Aten
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:39 pm

Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby GuestMember on Wed May 21, 2014 1:13 pm

i think this is a storm in a tea cup
most of the measurments are +5 or -5 mm the bow area has the mtr rule
craig what you are pushing would make the xp and new yms moulds not be legal
because they have come of foam and glass plugs
from i what hear the new FS is more like the YMS
the sabre has rules on what materials owner builders can use
GuestMember
 
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 2:14 pm

Re: Has Anyone Seen This?

Postby Aten on Wed May 21, 2014 3:49 pm

Which Guestmeber this time?
The YMS original mould is taken from a real ply Sabre. The new moulds are identical to this mould.
This subject is not a storm in a tea cup and it will not make the YMS and FS moulds illegal due to the usual "grandfather clause". The problem I have is not with the new FS mould and I have doubts that it will be any faster than existing boats. The problem is with the latest interpretation that allows this mould and the future moulds that will be made with this interpretaion. Previously all moulds (that I know of) were made from real ply Sabres and only faired enough to make a mould true.
Now that all a boat has to do is "measure" new boats will be made accordingly and each one pushing the limits a little more than the last until anything that is not from the latest moulds or made from ply will be considered too slow to win anything significant.
Aten
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:39 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Boat Construction

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest