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Stop Reading Things Into The rules

Postby GuestMember on Thu May 22, 2014 6:27 pm

Ashley you right the rules do not say anything about the materials to be used in fiberglass plug
or that it has to taken off plywood boat
it just says its got to measure and FS dose that
that all bean a bit mischief
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Re: Stop Reading Things Into The rules

Postby GuestMember on Fri May 23, 2014 12:19 am

Oh dear GuestMember twin. Perhaps a liberal sprinkling of punctuation and correct spelling would assist your cause. As it is, you come across as uneducated and frankly a bit of a pompous bore with an axe to grind and delusions of grandeur.
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Re: Stop Reading Things Into The rules

Postby Aten on Fri May 23, 2014 12:21 am

Guestmember,
I will spell it out one more time just for you. I know the new FS measures. I have stated this several times. The rules do not specifically say this and this is entirely the point. I have even said that I doubt the new FS will be faster.
My problem is with the latest interpretation and what will happen with further developments using this interpretation.
Ashley. There has been no recent rule changes to the design of the sabre only a change in interpretation of what emulates a ply boat. In the past (as far as I know) all moulds were taken off ply boats therefore ensuring they "emulated" a ply boat. This new FS boat (I understand) has been moulded from a plug not made in the same way as the building notes states that ply boats must be built. It is this building method that has kept the shape of the Sabre in check and helped the class to what it is today. Removing this requirement for fibreglass boat will likely make current glass boats and all ply boats obsolete. It may work out fine but why risk it when a simple and minor change will ensure this will not happen.
The national measurer decided that the FS measured within the rules and it emulated a ply boat. It appears to me he made the decision that it emulates by first looking at it and later by means of a thin strip of ply.
It is the many future New fibreglass moulds I am concerned with not the latest FS boat.

Craig.
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Re: Stop Reading Things Into The rules

Postby Youngi-from-YMS on Fri May 23, 2014 10:13 am

During my last, and I thought productive phone call with the National Measurer I was told the FS2 plug would be checked with a sheet of ply. A sheet is still smaller than the full panel but hast vastly different bend to a strip.

for many many years 420's, 470's Finns and FD's were all made with strips of cedar. The fastest Contenders from Italy still are. I think every one would agree they are a vastly different shape to a Sabre.

We both agreed that Rhino and AutoCAD could not post measure that the shape re emulating ply....... as falsely reported on another stream.

And when a panel is flattened, the angles at the chines changes and the panel spreads out past centreline and the line of the side chine as well so needs cutting down on the 2 edges and/or side panel moved out (which is too hard on an internally glassed plug)....so the panel effectively become smaller in width than when first taken from the templates.
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Re: Stop Reading Things Into The rules

Postby GuestMember on Fri May 23, 2014 11:48 am

Craig the FS plug was made by Phil Johnson.

Phil was the national measurer for a decade and a half and the plug was built via the standard Sabre process. He has made a large number of very fast ply boats historically and was the perfect choice to make a plug.

While I respect people can have an opinion, this is now the 4th/5th forum topic on the same subject. It is clear not everyone is going to agree on this one.

Perhaps it is time to either make a recommendation to your local Sabre committee for consideraton or alternatively move on.

Ashley
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Re: Stop Reading Things Into The rules

Postby Daen on Fri May 23, 2014 12:00 pm

Hi Youngi

With the usual disclaimer that I don't speak for the measurers, my understanding from discussions at black rock is that the plug was checked with sheets of ply cut to roughly the size of the flat panels. I won't quote anyone directly, but the gist of it was that it wasn't anything radical. I'm sure we will see when the first boats come out.



Youngi-from-YMS wrote:During my last, and I thought productive phone call with the National Measurer I was told the FS2 plug would be checked with a sheet of ply. A sheet is still smaller than the full panel but hast vastly different bend to a strip.

for many many years 420's, 470's Finns and FD's were all made with strips of cedar. The fastest Contenders from Italy still are. I think every one would agree they are a vastly different shape to a Sabre.

We both agreed that Rhino and AutoCAD could not post measure that the shape re emulating ply....... as falsely reported on another stream.

And when a panel is flattened, the angles at the chines changes and the panel spreads out past centreline and the line of the side chine as well so needs cutting down on the 2 edges and/or side panel moved out (which is too hard on an internally glassed plug)....so the panel effectively become smaller in width than when first taken from the templates.
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Re: Stop Reading Things Into The rules

Postby GuestMember on Fri May 23, 2014 1:36 pm

the rule is saying must try to be equal as nearly as possible the construction shape and performance
characteristics of a fully complying plywood boat
any race rules committee would just pass it back to the class committee they made there decision
bret i think you are flogging a dead horse
disleksia is not a bad thing you don't get a page of waffle from me
the committee thinks some people here should suddenly get
disleksia
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Re: Stop Reading Things Into The rules

Postby Aten on Fri May 23, 2014 2:00 pm

Daen- The general consensus is that the new FS boat is not anything radical and from what I have heard I tend to agree with this idea. I am not trying to get this boat out-lawed. What I think is this new method of deciding what emulates a ply boat is open to interpretation and personal opinion. It is the minor progressions and tweaks that will slowly evlove from this new interpretation that I have concerns with. Up to this point all the progressions and tweaks have already been done and have pretty much elvolved the class to a relatively standard shape.

Let's consider the following hypothetical idea for a bit. A rule passed that a mould can only be made from a real ply boat that has been registred for 1 year(or similar rule). This would likely achieve 4 main things. 1) Promote ply boat building. 2)Prove that the boat was not radically different and potentially detrimental to the class. 3) Quell any ideas that it does not emulate a ply boat as much as possible. 4) Remove any leeway for change in interpretation of what emulates a ply boat.
How could this be a bad thing?
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Re: Stop Reading Things Into The rules

Postby Aten on Fri May 23, 2014 2:06 pm

Thanks Guestmember. You just gave some good ideas.

To emulate a ply boat as much as possible would be to make a mould from a ply boat. As this is best possible way to emulate the shape this is how it must be done.

I doubt anyone could disagree with me on this one.

Craig
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Re: Stop Reading Things Into The rules

Postby Youngi-from-YMS on Fri May 23, 2014 5:32 pm

If the plug measured originally and the panels curve then flattened so then being narrower does it still measure with that much size change.

for 31 years FRP have all come from moulds from ply boats......all of them. I've been building FRP Sabres for 27 of those years and not once have we manipulated that shape.

for last 2 years all Ive been constantly asking for is obvious loopholes to be closed and the rules tightened so I can protect my financial investment to build 2 new moulds of exactly the same shape.

2 years later its still exactly what Im trying to do. close those same loopholes as people are trying to exploit them and build 2 new moulds of the same shape that we've had for 13 years.
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Re: Stop Reading Things Into The rules

Postby Youngi-from-YMS on Fri May 23, 2014 7:15 pm

Hi Daen,

why have official reps of that committee and the measurer reported on these forums and in emails that "a plwood strip" was used to check the measurements then? We can all only go on the facts reported and at no time ever has "2 full sized panels" been stated to me our anyone I know.

that's why third hand reporting is always treacherous....and hence why I went in and saw that plug for my self and spoke to Jim face to face myself. It was in fact me that reported that the rumours of a "radical" hull shape was grossly incorrect but the look on Jims face told the story when quizzed about the methods used to change the shape and the precedent this set which allows all boats and moulds from that point on to exploit this.
Youngi-from-YMS
 


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