Welcome Guest: Login | It is currently Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:31 am

Board index Development & Design Rigs & Sails Sabre V Pacer

Moderator: Sabre


Sabre V Pacer

Postby fitzwarryne on Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:19 pm

I would welcome comment on the relative performance of the Sabre as against the Pacer, both well known dinghies in Victoria.

According to the Yv yardstick the performance of the Sabre is marginally quicker. However I have recently raced iwith a club which sails them both and the Pacer appears faster in all conditions.
Based on skippers with the same level of skill, the Pacer is quicker in a straight line, points marginally higher and with the spinnaker up is much quicker off the wind. Say comparing three boats a class, the Pacer appears to be 5% quicker. The results seem to show Sabre skipperd cannot sail. I suggest a true yardstick would be 133-135


This tends to support the South Australian yardstick of 140 for the Sabre as gainst 126 for the Pacer. Is the Victorian yardstick realistic? The YV are looking for comment at the moment.
fitzwarryne
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St George, Bermuda

Yardstick is probably correct

Postby Barry Eastgate on Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:45 pm

In recent years the only time we have raced against Pacers in the same Div is at the Sail Melb Dinghy Classic hosted by Mordialloc SC.
In ultra light it is fairly even. 5-10knots Pacers gebearlly beat us square with kite and even upwind. Anything over 15 knots we usually kill them upwind and reaching, especially the latter. It could be more even square but usually our top boats are a long way in front so it is difficult to know.
Barry Eastgate
 

Postby fitzwarryne on Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:45 am

Thanks for the information Barry. My observations were generally in the typical 6-12 knot wind range where the Pacers were certainly quicker. I agree with the better performance of the Sabre in heavy winds as I coached the State junior team in Pacers and above 15 knots they were just overpowered.

Out of interest I will have to race a Pacer against a Sabre. The YMCA in Canberra has a fleet of Pacers for juniors, and you can hire a relatively new one for $20 an afternoon. The Pacer is certainly a good boat to train against with a Sabre.

I still wonder about the SA yardstick as their winds are generally strong.
fitzwarryne
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St George, Bermuda

about the same

Postby Wild One on Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:22 pm

Hi all,
I race against pacers all the time at regattas and i beat them around the bouys but they beat me on handiecap because they don't sail with a kite, so it's about the same.
Good sailing to all,
Ben
Wild One
691
Wild One
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:10 pm
Location: Gippsland Lakes, Paynesville, Victoria

Postby fitzwarryne on Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:06 pm

I thought it was time I brought you up to date on the Sabre v Pacer speed comparison.

The conclusion is that in typical inland 6- 10 knot variable breezes, the main difference is caused by crew weight. The top Pacer with an experienced light lady skippering with her young daughter sails around 95kg total weight. In contrast, the three top Sabre skippers sail at the 80kg range.

The Pacer in question easily outpoints the Sabres, and due to weight has the same boat speed. I think the only tune-up solution is loose 15kg!

Paul Fitzwarryne 266
fitzwarryne
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St George, Bermuda

Postby A Trace of Blue - 1666 on Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:33 am

Hi All.

In regards to the Sabre / Pacer question:

Any boat running a Main Jib combination will usually out point a Single sail boat like a Sabre.

The only way you will ever get a real comparison between the two is to stick a Sabre Rig on a Pacer, sail it single handed, and see how the two hulls compare that way.

I guess a Sabre would point as well of better than a Pacer if we stuck on a Jib and reach or run better than a Pacer if we added a Spinnaker as well.

Damn, I've forgotten what the whole point of this argument was!

How about we start comparing Herons as well, or 420's.

Hmmmm

Willy . . .
Peter Wilcox
1666 - A Trace of Blue

God Still Sails a Payne-Mortlock Sailing Canoe!
A Trace of Blue - 1666
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:16 pm
Location: Bittern - Victoria

Postby fitzwarryne on Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:41 am

The point of the original question was to establish what is an appropriate yardstick for a Sabre to fairly compete in an open event. The YV yardstick is widely used but is not necessarily correct, one problem is few people bother to provide input. The reason I aked about Pacers was my experience in competing against several and finding it difficult to keep up.

The fact that a two sail boat points higher is not the question, which is how do they compare when sailed round a course in typical conditions. 'Typical conditions' is the problem. For example comparing the Sabre with a Spiral, a similar dinghy which is marginally quicker on the YV yardstick, the Spiral is 7% quicker under 4 knots, reducing to 4% quicker at 12 knots, but above 18 knots the Sabre comes into its own and is 2% quicker. If your sailing conditions are typically 8 knots compared with 15 knots on Port Phillip Bay, what is the appropriate yardstick?

My experience is that the Sabre YV rating is too high for yardstick racing at most clubs, and the YSA rating is more accurate. If the YV yardstick is used it reflects badly on the ability of a Sabre skipper.
fitzwarryne
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St George, Bermuda

Postby A Trace of Blue - 1666 on Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:10 am

Paul,

My appology for the lackluster first reply, you next comment clears up heaps.

As you have pointed out, the Yardsticks only get updated if there is input from the clubs that race them to the YV guy that updates the yardstick. His biggest problem is that to many classes / clubs don't input (at all in many cases), so many are years out of date.

It will only get fixed for the Sabres if the associations and clubs are kept under pressure to input the information.
Peter Wilcox
1666 - A Trace of Blue

God Still Sails a Payne-Mortlock Sailing Canoe!
A Trace of Blue - 1666
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:16 pm
Location: Bittern - Victoria

Postby fitzwarryne on Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:22 pm

ROD

The VYA has receivede little support in trying to keep the yardsticks up to date. I am just about to send them some relevant data based on results from the ACT dinghy championship. Most of my sailing activities these days seems to be in race management and I was RO for this event which attracted 77 entries. Conditions over 6 races varied from 3-20 knots.

The Sabre was well represented with top skippers including John Atkins, Natalie Farrel and Shane Navin. I kept leg and lap times for leading boats.

There was a very interesting result, Sabres had the widest spread of performance. In light winds, up to 5 knots, they sailed 7% below their yardstick, 5% below up to 12 knots. They could only keep to their yardstick above 15 knots particularily in heavy chop and going to windward. If you took other single handers such as the Spiral and Laser Radial then overall the Sabre sailed 6.2% below their YV yardstick. Cross checking with NS14s and Tasars confirmed the Sabre's variation in performance.

My conclusion is that while the Sabre yardstick might be appropriate for the high wind conditions of Port Phillip Bay, they do not trully represent Sabre performance for most club conditions. Until recently the only other twoi yardsticks available were the South Australian at 140 and the LBG yardstick from the ACT at 133. Based on the data available around 134 would appear to be the true Sabre performance.

The reason this came up originally in the Sabre v Pacer context was looking at Club results were a mid national fleet Sabre skipper was being beaten by some of the eight club owned Pacers sailed by trainees with only 24 hours experience before going on to a racing skills course.

regards Paul
fitzwarryne
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St George, Bermuda


Return to Rigs & Sails

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron